Who ever purified, isolated and seen on TEM the hepatitis B virus particles??? I think all this is not more nor less than medical fraud!!!
Thanks for your great question. A lot of electron microscopy had been done on Hepatitis B in the 70s. Hepatitis B has an advantage over most viruses in that there are usually very high levels of virus in the blood, making it pretty easy to discover and visualise. Here are some classic EM pictures taken of HBV (known as Dane particles) as well as the surface antigen sub-viral particles (filaments and spheres):
The numbers represent the number of each of the particles in 1 mL of someone’s blood. These are shown in the review by the highly-regarded clinician scientist Wolfram Gehrlich here: Medical Virology of Hepatitis B: how it began and where we are now | Virology Journal | Full Text
The virus particles were first isolated from 3 different patients’ blood and visualized by researchers by the names of Dane, Cameron and Briggs in the 70s: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673670909268
I hope this answers your question.
Cheers,
Thomas
Those pictures just gave me the creeps knowing my blood is like that with hepatitis b virus.
Feels normal as usual and I have to remind myself I have hepatitis b and I should be ready for the next stage of my disease
Hi @NeptuneJ,
I think you should keep in mind that everyone’s blood has stuff like that in it (e.g. droplets that transport fats around the body, that look pretty similar to viruses). The researchers have just done various purification procedures to take all of that other stuff out.
Cheers,
Thomas
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P.S. I’ve made this a new topic because I think it’s an important subject that people should be able to search for.
TT
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Wow… I didn’t even know this was/would be at question. Am I reading the topic right?
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Mr Thomas, 1.I am a hepatitis B virus infected, in chronic stage. please, don not treat me as an idiot! i’ve red a lot of these stuff! What yo’ ve show me, are indeed EM pictures, but done on cells cultures, which are not more and not less than cells debrees!!!scam lab!!! 2. I am asking you again, who ever found the real virus particles in a fresh drop blood and put on TEM, not in SEM, or even on SEM??? 3. If you are an especialist in this field, than tell me, did you personally saw the virus on EM from fresh blood??? Not from cells culture? For God sake!!! Would you be able to do that? I think you speak only from books! Not from a real experience of you! In Romania, from where I am, Stefan Nicolau Institute of Virology from Bucharest, they told me they never purified, isolate and indentified virus B particle directely from patient, and also they told me, in worldwide ever was done! So what, for God’s name, are you telling me? I am not a reggular people, but I am a civil engeneer of 35 yers old, not a studyless! God help me, I will demand medical authorities from Romania to prove me in public that the virus PARTICLES, not others stuff which only conventions as antigens or markers they’re named, what so ever! I am going to find the TRUTH! If you heared about dr Stefan Lanka, virologist from Germany, I think he is right! In the pure blood, not in cells cultures nobody found the virus particle, and even they done it, they did not prove the Koch’s postulates! This situatie is identically with HIV, C, D hepatitis viruses, but also covid19! Anyway, thank you that answer to me! Reflect on what I’ve written above!
Kary Mullis said that PCR is not for indentifying the traces of a virus! This a big FRAUD!!! STOP! The only analyse to prove the existence of a virus is the SEM OR TEM directely from patients blood fresh samples!
Di you not see what happens with this crazy pandemic covid19 crisis??? All our rights are broken because of a medical BIG fraud!!!
I’m happy to discuss further studies in good faith if that’s what you would like, but I would like to encourage you to please remain civil. I have not treated you with any disrespect and I request that you do the same for everyone in this community.
Regarding purification and visualisation of HBV from blood, this has been done several times in several separate groups (in addition to the Dane paper I mention above) and also looking at the liver of infected patients:
- https://www.jimmunol.org/content/jimmunol/117/4/1392.full.pdf
- https://jcp.bmj.com/content/28/4/260
- https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(82)80327-2/pdf
- Morphological Irregularities in Dane Particle Cores | Microbiology Society
- https://jcp.bmj.com/content/jclinpath/32/6/590.full.pdf
My colleagues that I worked with in Germany have been involved in electron microscopy work of HBV patients.
Koch’s postulates for HBV have been addressed through the Willowbrook studies and by chimpanzee studies in the 80s and 90s.
The comments from Kary Mullis are taken out of context: he appears to have been talking about quantifying infectious virus level. Which is true, so we use quantitative PCR, a variant of the technique Kary invented to look at the levels of HBV DNA. We also use other techniques to determine infectiousness (including some animal studies).
I’ve suspended you for 2 hours as you have been a bit aggressive with your words, but I am happy to talk in good faith after that time if we can have a civil conversation.
Thomas
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Dear Sir,
Maybe there is something being lost in translation? Regardless, of what anyone’s beliefs or hypotheses are, no one should be so disrespectful. Many of us in this forum may be ‘regular’, but none of us have shown such a display of arrogance and disregard on here. Please read more of these forums before leveling such accusations.
Thomas is a leading scientist in the field and is a leader in so many ways that I can’t even count them on one hand. What I do know is that he started this community out of heartfelt care and concern for this community around the WORLD. He has chronic HBV himself and it hurts all of us when he is attacked in this manner. Most of us ‘regular’ people probably don’t know what TEM and SEM and EM are, but there is a civil manner to approach questions and even disagreements. It’s ok to disagree or to share opinions but it’s not ok to come on this forum and blast this type of accusation and belittle someone’s profession and validity. This does not only demean Thomas, but all the other professionals that donate their time in this community, the predecessors from the previous community that helped create and evolve the public availability for HBV support, AND all of us ‘regular’ people that suffer from HBV.
This community is here to answer questions but most importantly, to support each other. We can disagree on here but NO ONE has the right to speak to anyone in this manner.
Please understand all the support this community provides and the time, effort and passion Thomas puts into this community with no compensation but knowing that he is helping countless people around the world.
Thank You,
Paul
Note: I have edited this post in order to uphold community guidelines.
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Hi Thomas,
I feel so badly that you have been attacked like this. I am so sorry that someone with such dedication and good heart would have such words leveled at them. My heart is really hurting for you right now. I know that you are taking it on the chin but I have been a leader in a few ways in my life and I know it can really hurt when someone attacks our passion and especially our integrity.
I understand that you want to allow for freedom of speech and discussion even when it’s disagreement, but I wish you had a shield like some form of administrative body that would take care of this type of situation so you could focus solely on all the good that you do. Yet, we have never had anything remotely like this on here before. Once in a great while we might have someone who is a bit demanding but nothing a fraction of 1x10 E6 of this (I think I am learning something but I couldn’t convert this to LOG.)
Not only are you respected and appreciated but you are NEEDED by all of us.
With all DUE respect and concern,
-Paul
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Hola Thomas , Pablo todos los del grupo que aportan información vivencias gracias a este foro que muchos que entramos con miedos vamos poco a poco sintiendo más confianza u fortaleza se que todos te estimamos Thomas por siempre tu gran labor como profesional científico y humano se nota que eres un gran ser humano como muchos amigos amigas del foro tambien decir que no estoy deacuerdo con la persona que se expresó mal atacandote eres increíble Thomas un gran ser humano y todos los del grupo matengamosno unidos saludos y bendiciones a todos
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I appreciate the concern and support, but I would like to remind everyone of the forum rules regarding content they find offensive - I don’t like something that was posted: what do I do? (Conflict resolution guidelines). Importantly, all parties should please try to keep discussions civil and leave personal attacks out of it.
@DDaniel1860216105021, I understand that you may be feeling frustrated and stressed by your diagnosis. Many people on this forum (myself included) have been diagnosed with Hepatitis B also and have been in similar situations of being upset. We extend you a welcome to join our community, so that we can all support each other through this tough period.
It is true that governments and societies have not responded ideally to hepatitis B. There is lack of funding, there is poor support and low access to health care for people with hepatitis B in many parts of the world, and the progress to improve these things has been slow. But this does not mean that the position of any opposing side is correct.
Some further comments on the points you raise, for the last >50 years there has been >99% consensus among virologists that Hepatitis B being caused by a virus. As cited above, there have been detailed studies looking at all aspects of this, including isolation and visualisation of the virus from the blood of hepatitis B patients.
Scientists have used this knowledge to develop antiviral therapies and vaccines that have improved the lives of millions of people around the world (we have recently discussed these advances here - Viral Hepatitis: improving lives through medical research - an interactive panel discussion (29th July, free registration)). The science has worked in real life and millions have benefited. It is telling that all of the health workers are vaccinated against Hepatitis B and the ones that are HBV-positive themselves take the recommended medications.
If you are suggesting that a fundamental point on which more than 50 years of research and clinical improvements in patients is wrong, then the responsibility is on you to provide the evidence of that argument as to why all of the results in those 50 years are incorrect. As you are a learned individual with scientific knowledge, I hope you agree that this is the appropriate way to proceed.
I am happy to continue discussions, if you will raise your issues in a civil manner and you approach the exchange as an honest truth-finding exercise rather than coming already with your mind made up.
Yours sincerely,
Thomas
Hello doctor, first, please forgive me for my attitude! Ok, I understood you also hepatitis B, but anyway, I ask you, why doctor don’t use also isolation the virus from infected patient, directly from the blood? You know that all tests antigens and PCR for load viremia are only indirectly analysis? So, please, I ask you again, did you personally saw on TEM the virus paricles full shaped, which are in your blood or liver? Do you know Dr Stefan Lanka from Germany? He claims that the viruses are lies! He prove for example the measles it is not caused by a virus, but chemicals toxicity. He prove with experimental constrol. I red the scientific article and in all I saw that ‘the virus’ was izolated ONLY in cells cultures, why only in this manner? it is so strange this thing! We have TEM, I think if we would put a drop of fresh blood we could see for real if there are or no the virus particles in their real form. So, I am asking you again, did you done in this way for yousef, the virus B proof? Or only with antigens, PCR ADN viral load and other investigation? Please, we all shoul consider this point of view! The cells cultures are only debris, so the cells are killed or stresed with detergente and other things. In culture is not aa in the natural medium, the blood! So? Thank you and again, forgive me! I belive that a lot of liver problems are caused by toxicity from food, or drog abuse, alcohol, oxidative stres, poverty, eyc, do you not belive that? In this sens, identically is the HIV infection, in which there are a lot of scientific how claims the virus wasn’t never isolated! Luc Montagnier admitted, but Peter Deusberg, David Rasnick, Etienne de Harven (electron microscopy especialist!), Dr Stefan Lanka and Perth Group from Australia…
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Dear @DDaniel1860216105021,
It is not true that isolation has only been done in cell culture, as mentioned in the citations above. It is also not true that virus isolates from cell culture are only debris. The viruses produced and isolated from cell culture have been shown to be infectious in many studies on chimpanzees.
The isolation and visualization of hepatitis B is a very specialised technique, as I know first-hand. It is not as simple as putting blood on an EM grid and visualising it, because you will just end up seeing a lot of other blood-borne lipids and proteins instead. Virus preparation first requires purification (generally using isopycnic ultracentrifugation to separate components based on density and other methods such as affinity chromatography). The preparation for EM also requires the use of very toxic chemicals, specialised machinery, very highly skilled technical staff, and a lot of time (months to years). Because of this it would be very expensive to test each person for hepatitis B (more than 10,000 euro per test) and would take a long time to do. We cannot practically do this for everyone.
I have seen preparations of HBV for EM in my previous group, yes. I have not had it done for my own blood because there are strong restrictions on how we spend money in the lab (as these are funded using tax-payer money). Also it would not provide any additional benefit given the strong scientific evidence that these indirect markers are only present when there’s active virus replication.
You are right that the viral antigens, antibodies and HBV DNA are indirect measures of the virus, but are very well-characterized and can be done relatively quickly and cheaply. Also, we can be more certain about them if they all agree with one another. For example, almost all HBsAg-positive people are also HBcAb-positive, and the opposite is true for negative patients. By the same token, almost all HBV DNA positive people are HBsAg-positive. When tests do not agree, we repeat them and these generally are false-positives or false-negatives. In the cases where that’s not true, we send in scientists to try to find out what is happening.
We also know that these indirect markers correlate very closely with infectivity. Mothers who have high viral loads (measured by PCR) are more likely to pass it on to their children if they are unvaccinated. This is a very strong indication that PCR measures infectivity. These real-life infections still occur today, ~1M new cases of HBV occur per year in countries where vaccination rates are low.
Also, many studies have shown that vaccination against the virus stops liver cancer - these have been shown in controlled studies in multiple countries (most famously in Taiwan and Alaska). Liver cancer rates went down dramatically after vaccination with everything else being controlled for. This can only happen if Hepatitis B is caused by a virus.
Transmission to children can also be prevented if mothers are given antivirals prior to birth. These nucleoside analogues suppress the virus by blocking its replication function. Again, these results can only be possible if Hepatitis B is a virus.
The markers also correlate strongly with disease. If you are HBsAg-positive, you are about 100 times more likely to get liver cancer. Antivirals have been shown to decrease the risk.
I agree that there are many other liver diseases caused by the factors you suggest. Our research centre (Storr Liver Group, Westmead Institute for Medical Science) looks at all of these. But Hepatitis B remains one of the major causes of liver disease in the world.
Regarding the people you mention, I am aware of their claims, but I don’t think any of them have ever said that Hepatitis B doesn’t exist. But even if they did, you need to provide some evidence why the claims of these people should be trusted over the hundreds of thousands of other scientists that agree that Hepatitis B is a virus.
Yours sincerely,
Thomas
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Ok, thank you very much!
You don’t have to believe that HBV is real. In fact, you can just stop taking medications and do whatever you want. But if you die, it’s not our fault.
who are you to tell me I will die? how can you prove that I will die because of the “virus B”?
Please feel free to believe anything you want. Make sure though to monitor your health and take the needed measures to protect those around you.
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